Warning: These videos may not be suitable for all audiences.
From Mujahideen Ryder and Contemplating Chishti comes video and descriptions of a private mawlid that occurred in the hotel suite of Shaykh Abdullah bin Bayyah although it seems bin Bayyah was not present during the Reviving the Islamic Spirit confererence last December in Toronto. Shaykh Talal, Shaykh Ramsy, Hamza Yusuf, Zaid Shakir, Yahya Rhodus, Amir from Mujahideen Ryder, Salman from Contemplating Chishti, Hamzah from Maniac Muslim, and others were present. Sisters seem to have been excluded.
The video was removed from MR’s site and the description is now password protected at Contemplating Chishti. Mawlid video deleted as requested by MR.
Reading the description on Contemplating Chishti has provided me with a deeper insight into why some people are so eager to engage in this activity and what they get out of it. I had a feeling that like the video on MR’s site, the description would also be removed so I saved it for educational value. You can email me for the description in sha Allah.
And then I saw this hadra with the late Shaykh Abd al-Rahman Shaghouri on GoogleVideo and was disturbed. I don’t get that at all. With the description from Salman despite the fact that I don’t agree with it, I kinda get that particular mawlid. Kinda. But I don’t understand this hadra thing, perhaps someone can explain it to me.
Ify Okoye 
SubhanAllah….i’m quite speechless after watching that.
I’m totally on the same page as you; i’ve asked my mom numerous times to explain the mawlid to me (and I don’t even know what hadra is, not very keen on finding out) because it was a very common practice in Somalia with the older generations, alhamdulillah not as much now.
All of the uncles and ‘sheikhs’ would sit around in a circle and chant praises and blessings to rasul Allah salAllahu alayhi wa sallam, while the woman make a whole lotta food for them.
SubhanAllah I just don’t understand these ‘holidays’ that muslims celebrate–mawlid, israa and mi’raj, among others. I remember when we were in Madinah we were in the elevator with these old ladies and we were talking to them, and they said to us when they got off, something along the lines of celebrating israa and mi’raj, or the birth of Al-Husayn…we were stunned! La huwla wa la quwwata ila billah!
I have a lot of other things that i’d like to share with you..privately 🙂
May Allah guide us all on His Path, and make us firm in our deen, and steadfast on the prophet’s sunnah (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam). ameen
assaalamualaykum
One would only find something to be strange if you don’t understand it,for example, a non-muslim finds making sujood very strange because he does’nt understand the importance of salaah,do you get me.We as muslims would be required to explain why we perform our prayer in that particular way so that they can become knowledgable about the whole process.Similarly,performing Thikrullah in certain ways and positions would have to be explained to those muslims or non-muslims who do not understand so that they can understand.
Asalamu alaykum,
I remember during the Light of Guidance seminar that the issue of the definition of bidah and celebrating the mawlid was one of the most contentious issues during the class.
Shaykh Yasir came with such clear and detailed proofs but the emotions of some students overtook them and they began insulting the shaykh in the question and answer portion. And even I became angry internally at their behavior and almost walked out but the shaykh displayed such beautiful manners in responding to each point they raised and I learned so much that seminar just from his manners towards the students.
Whoa. There are some lovely beards bouncing around in that room.
Okay really, now that my defense mechanism is failing. I’m so sad. When they start to “get into it”, it’s like a Muslim looking rave. For those that have never experienced being in a large space full of many bodies, all be excited by a throbbing beat…let me just say it is exciting. And that is exactly what these brothers are experiencing. I’m sure many of these brothers come away FEELING so exstatic…the same as one might when coming out of a Revival Tent or an all night Rave. It’s a great feeling. And that’s it. Adthudibillah.
And are you supposed to “get this”? Isn’t it simple enough that the Prophet (S) didn’t do this, the Sahabah didn’t do it, the Tabiyeen didn’t do it, and I don’t know how many of the first generations didn’t do it. And how about the 4 imams, did they do it? No. I mean can anyone come with a straight face and say that the Prophet (S) would have been part of something like this?
“Typical salafi talking points?” Well, why don’t any of the supporters of this innovation give me an atypical reply and explain to me how they know something that is so good and pleasing to Allah, that none of the greatest Muslims knew? I will ACCEPT a reasonable reply, I think we all will. But I won’t be holding my breath. Although, what I can hold my breath for is some of the sufi-leaning brothers/sisters to tell me that this whirling and shaking is extreme sufism, and not the ‘moderate’ or ‘middle-path’ type stuff. Tell me it is so??
Musings of a Muslim Mind
salaamz…. your right… the Beloved Prophet (saw) did not do such a thing….. however your wrong about the sahba’s…. in fact they did do hadras in the beloved Prophet’s presence….. and there is hadith proove this…..
http://shadhilitariqa.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=52&Itemid=23
that is the link to an article on the hadra…. prooving itz origin and validity…. =]
wassalam
Ok, I am not a Muslim, I am a human being interested in other human beings. I found myself nodding in time to the rhythm and could easily see myself bowing and jumping with them. It was so like heavy metal rock concerts I have attended (AC/DC and Iron Maiden). I have seen film of similar events in Haiti in regard to “Voodoo” and I have seen similar events within “charismatic” Christian churches. I wondered if this was anything to do with the “Whirling Dirveshes” I had read about as a kid 50 years ago. So I did some Googling and came across http://www.livingislam.org/k/hdra_e.html This gave me some answers and showed that there are authorities who endorse it. Just how authorative these authorities are/were I am obviously not qualified to say. I will read further comments on this with interest.
Salaam,
Brooke: lol, lovely beards? Lower your gaze. No doubt about it, it looks just like a rave or a concert or when people get up and start jumping around in church claiming to “feel the spirit”.
Amad: That neither the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam nor the best generations practiced this is enough for me. So I want to understand from people that believe this is a good thing or an act of worship to come closer to Allah, just what they get out of it.
Archie: I agree it’s just like the feeling you get at a concert (minus the temporary hearing loss) or in an evangelical or many black churches. The preacher speaks in an excited manner, then the music and choir start singing, shouting, and moving in excitedly, and before long people in the pews are standing up, putting their hands in the air, shouting, speaking in tongues (which always struck as extremely fake always the same people each week), and moving around.
Archie, I remember looking at the link some time ago, it’s a pretty standard response for those that support these sorts of activities. There are opposing viewpoints, which at least to me seem to have stronger evidence than the ones in that link.
That jumping and shaking has to have an affect on the brain. For those moments, I am sure it achieves a high. I wonder though if it has longer term affects, perhaps that’s why these people don’t “get it”, because their brains are permanently disfigured?
Humor Alert.
So I want to understand from people that believe this is a good thing or an act of worship to come closer to Allah, just what they get out of it….
Asalamu Walaikum Apple,
I just want to remind you to think about your intentions for why you want to know this? Is it to be able to give dawah to the misguided? Is it to further the way you may already judge them? Is it to help protect yourself from such shayatanic temptations?
My husband and I watched it with our boys last night. Used it as a Muslim Public Service Announcement…”If any brother ever asked you to partake in something like this…seek refuge with Allah and run!”
Beards…They are VERY popular amongst the non-muslims where I live…err makes me so mad when they catch my eye!
Asalamu Walaikum
Asalamu alaykum,
None of the above. I’ve never participated in a mawlid or hadra so my knowledge of it comes from what I’ve seen or heard from other sources. And then from those sources are those that think it is an innovation and those that think it is something good and those that have participated and those that haven’t. So in order to form a more complete opinion I like to hear from a diverse group of sources.
Ahhh. Yeah, I do that too sometimes. Like the madhabs still trip me up time to time. And also “Reliable Sources of Knowledge”.
The reasons sited in Amad’s answer are sufficient for me. From what you witnessed in your class >but the emotions of some students overtook them and they began insulting the shaykh> it seems you may not get any well supported answers from those that do practice these things, allahualim.
One of the greatest names in Islamic History have allowed hadhra. However, from my understanding, it is only ‘mubah’ since it’sno an act of worship. I think if someone was to call it mustahab or even act of worship that would become reprehensible bid’ah…wAllahu a’alam.
oops correction: some of the greatest ulema such as imam nawawi, ibn hajr etc … allowed hadhra.
Asalamu alaykum,
Thanks Nuqtah, I wonder what the shaykh and those in this particular hadra believed they were doing whether an act of worship or just an allowed practiced.
I remember reading a narration from Ibn Umar that scared me and I didn’t understand and perhaps I still don’t understand it, he said,”It is feared that rocks fall down from the skies upon you, I tell you the Messenger of Allah said such and such and you tell me Abu Bakr and Umar said such and such.”
One reason I prefer or the evidence given against doing some of these things seems to be stronger is that those who oppose it cite the Quran, and the ahadeeth, and the statements of the earliest generations while its supporters often cite a noble scholar from a later period. And there is such a vast difference between them.
Just a question, what is the basic ruling regarding dancing (which is what a Hadra is)? Is it Haram, Makruh, Mubah? This is how the issue should be explored.
I’ve been to both mawlids and hadras. Many orthodox shaykhs around the world perform hadras. They are not for everybody. In the hadras i’ve participated in, i felt that i grew closer to God, but i feel i benefit more from dhikrs where i can sit completely still (i don’t even like to sway like many do). The reason you don’t see women there may be because they are in another room. The hadras i’ve been to, there was a divider in the room. We could still hear the men, and the Shaykh’s wife and some other ladies could see around the divider so they could better lead the rest of the women in the motions. I’ve been to one hadra where we were in the same room with the men, and although the room was dark and we were on the other side of the room, it made it a bit uncomfortable to participate and i ended up just sitting down. My husband told me later that he felt the same way.
Asalamu alaykum,
Alkashif, I suppose that is another way to look at it.
Musicalchef, those descriptions have added an important dimension to my understanding and have helped put a human face on it.
I’ve learned a lot from the comments here, except for the humor failure one.
Shaikh Nuh wrote something about the Hadra about 11 years ago. I reproduce it here for benefit:
——
The Public Dhikr (Hadra)
© Nuh Ha Mim Keller 1996.
A person coming to the Middle East to learn something about the tariqa is likely, at some point in his visit, to see the brethren in the hadra or “public dhikr” as it has been traditionally practiced by generations of Shadhilis in North Africa under such sheikhs as al-‘Arabi al-Darqawi, Muhammad al-Buzidi, and Ahmad al-‘Alawi before being brought to Damascus from Algeria by Muhammad ibn Yallis and Muhammad al-Hashimi at the beginning of this century.
Upon entering the mosque, one will see circles of men making dhikr (women participants are screened from view upstairs) standing and holding hands, now slightly bowing in unison, now moving up and down with their knees in unison, the rows rising and falling, breathing in unison, while certain of them alternate at pacing around their midst, conducting the tempo of the group’s motion and breathing with their arms and step. Singers near the sheikh, in solo or chorus, deliver mystical odes to the rhythm of the group; high, spiritual poetry from masters like Ibn al-Farid, Sheikh Ahmad al-‘Alawi, ‘Abd al-Qadir al-Himsi, and our own sheikh.
Though a very stirring experience, it is meticulously timed and controlled, and as with all group dhikrs, the main adab or “proper behaviour” is harmony. No one should stand out in any way, but rather all subordinate their movement, breathing, and dhikr to that of the group. The purpose is to forget one’s individuality in the collective sea of spirits making dhikr in unison. Individual motives, thoughts, and preoccupations are momentarily put aside by means of the Sacred Dance, of moving together as one, sublimating and transcending the limitary and personal through the timelessness of rhythm, conjoined with the melody of voices singing spiritual meanings.
It is an experience that joins those travelling towards Allah spiritually, socially, and emotionally. Few forget it, and visitors from the West to whom it is unfamiliar sometimes wonder if it is a bid‘a or “reprehensible innovation,” as it was not done in the time of the earliest Muslims, or whether it is unlawful (haram) or offensive (makruh); and why they see the ulama and righteous attending it in Damascus, Jerusalem, Aden, Cairo, Tripoli, Tunis, Fez, and wherever there are people of the path.
I was one of those who asked our sheikh about the relation of the hadra to the shari‘a or “Sacred Law” which is the guiding light of our tariqa. As Muslims, our submission to the law is total, and there are no thoughts or opinions after legally answering the question “Does the hadra agree with orthodox Islam?”
Because it comprises a number of various elements, such as gathering together for the remembrance of Allah (dhikr), singing, and dancing, we should reflect for a moment on some general considerations about the Islamic shari‘a before discussing each of these separately.
First, the Islamic shari‘a furnishes a comprehensive criterion for all possible human actions, whether done before or never done before. It classifies actions into five categories, the obligatory (wajib), whose performance is rewarded by Allah in the next life and whose nonperformance is punished; the recommended (mandub), whose performance is rewarded but whose nonperformance is not punished; the permissible (mubah), whose performance is not rewarded and whose nonperformance is not punished; the offensive (makruh), whose nonperformance is rewarded but whose performance is not punished; and the unlawful (haram), whose nonperformance is rewarded and whose performance is punished.
Now, Allah in His wisdom has made the vast majority of human actions permissible. He says in surat al-Baqara, “It is He who has created everything on earth for you” (Koran 2:29), which establishes the shari‘a principle that all things are mubah or permissible for us until Allah indicates to us that they are otherwise. Because of this, the fact that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) did not do this or that particular practice does not prove that it is offensive or unlawful, but only that it is not obligatory.
This is the reason that when shari‘a scholars speak of bid‘a, they do not merely mean an “innovation” or something that was never done before, which is the lexical sense of the word, but rather a “blameworthy innovation” or something new that no legal evidence in Sacred Law attests to the validity of, which is the shari‘a sense of the word. The latter is the bid‘a of misguidance mentioned in the hadith “The worst of matters are those that are new, and every innovation (bid‘a) is misguidance” (Sahih Muslim. 5 vols. Cairo 1376/1956. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1403/1983, 2.592: 867), which, although general in wording, scholars say refers specifically to new matters that entail something offensive or unlawful.
Imam Shafi‘i explains:
New matters are of two kinds: something newly begun that contravenes the Koran, sunna, the position of early Muslims, or consensus of scholars (ijma‘): this innovation is misguidance. And something newly inaugurated of the good in which there is no contravention of any of these, and is therefore something which although new (muhdatha), is not blameworthy. For when ‘Umar (Allah be well pleased with him) saw the [tarawih] prayer being performed [in a group by Muslims at the mosque] in Ramadan, he said, “What a good innovation (bid‘a) this is,” meaning something newly begun that had not been done before. And although in fact it had, this does not negate the legal considerations just advanced [n: i.e. that it furnishes an example of something that ‘Umar, who was a scholar of the Sahaba, praised as a “good innovation” despite his belief that it had not been done before, because it did not contravene the broad principles of the Koran or sunna]
(Dhahabi: Siyar a‘lam al-nubala’. 23 vols. Beirut: Mu’assassa al-Risala, 1401/1981, 10.70).
As for the practice of Muslims gathering together for group dhikr or the “invocation of Allah,” there is much evidence of its praiseworthiness in the sunna—aside from the many Koranic verses and the hadiths establishing the general merit of dhikr in every state—such as the hadith related by Bukhari:
Truly, Allah has angels going about the ways, looking for people of dhikr, and when they find a group of men invoking Allah, they call to one another, “Come to what you have been looking for!” and they circle around them with their wings up to the sky of this world.
Then their Lord asks them, though He knows better than they, “What do My servants say?” And they reply, “They say, Subhan Allah (“I glorify Allah’s absolute perfection”), Allahu Akbar (“Allah is ever greatest”), and al-Hamdu li Llah (“All praise be to Allah”), and they extoll Your glory.”
He says, “Have they seen Me?” And they answer, “No, by Allah, they have not seen You.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen Me?” And they say, “If they had seen You, they would have worshipped You even more, glorified You more, and said Subhan Allah the more.”
He asks them, “What do they ask of Me?” And one answers, “They ask You
paradise.” He says, “Have they seen it?” And they say, “No, by Allah, My Lord, they have not seen it.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen it?” And they say, “If they had seen it, they would have been more avid for it, sought it more, and been more desirous of it.”
Then He asks them, “From what do they seek refuge?” And they answer, “From hell.” He says, “Have they seen it?” And they say, “No, by Allah, they have not seen it.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen it?” And they say, “If they had seen it, they would have fled from it even more, and been more fearful of it.”
He says, “I charge all of you to bear witness that I have forgiven them.” Then one of the angels says, “So-and-so is among them, though he is not one of them but only came for something he needed.” And Allah says, “They are companions through whom no one who keeps their company shall meet perdition”
(Sahih al-Bukhari. 9 vols. Cairo 1313/1895. Reprint (9 vols. in 3). Beirut: Dar al-Jil, n.d., 8.107–8: 6408).
The last line of the hadith shows the highest approval for gatherings of dhikr in the religion of Allah. Some other accounts transmit the condemnation of Ibn Mas‘ud (Allah be well please with him) for gathering together to say Subhan Allah (perhaps out of fear of ostentation), but even if we were to grant their authenticity, the above hadith of Bukhari, containing the explicit approval of such gatherings by Allah and His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) suffices us from needing the permission of Ibn Mas‘ud or any other human being.
Further, the explicit mention of the various forms of dhikr in the hadith suffice in reply to certain contemporary “re-formers” of Islam, who attempt to reduce “sessions of dhikr” to educational gatherings alone by quoting the words of ‘Ata’ (ibn Abi Rabah, Mufti of Mecca, d. 114/732), who reportedly said,
Sessions of dhikr are the sessions of [teaching people] the lawful and unlawful, how you buy, sell, pray, fast, wed, divorce, make the pilgrimage, and the like. (Nawawi: al-Majmu‘: Sharh al-Muhadhdhab. 20 vols. Cairo n.d. Reprint. Medina: al-Maktaba al-Salafiyya, n.d., 1.21).
Perhaps ‘Ata’ intended to inform people that teaching and learning shari‘a are also a form of dhikr, but in any case it is clear from the Prophet’s explicit words (Allah bless him and give him peace) in the above hadith that “sessions of dhikr” cannot be limited to teaching and learning Sacred Law alone, but primarily mean gatherings of Muslims to invoke Allah in dhikr.
As for dancing, Imam Ahmad relates from Anas (Allah be well pleased with him), with a chain of transmission all of whose narrators are those of Bukhari except Hammad ibn Salama, who is one of the narrators of Muslim, that the Ethiopians danced in front of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace); dancing and saying [in their language], “Muhammad is a righteous servant.” The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “What are they saying?” And they said, “‘Muhammad is a righteous servant’”
(Musnad al-Imam Ahmad. 6 vols. Cairo 1313/1895. Reprint. Beirut: Dar Sadir, n.d., 3.152).
Other versions of the hadith clarify that this took place in the mosque in Medina, though in any case, the fact that dancing was done before the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) establishes that it is mubah or “permissible” in the shari‘a, for if it had been otherwise, he would have been obliged to condemn it.
For this reason, Imam Nawawi says:
Dancing is not unlawful, unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate. And it is permissible to speak and to sing poetry, unless it satirizes someone, is obscene, or alludes to a particular woman”
(Minhaj al-talibin wa ‘umdat al-muttaqin. Cairo 1338/1920. Reprint. Cairo: Mustafa al-Babi al-Halabi, n.d., 152).
This is a legal text for the permissibility of both dancing and singing poetry from the Minhaj al-talibin, the central legal work of the entire late Shafi‘i school. Islamic scholars point out that if something which is permissible, such as singing poetry or dancing, is conjoined with something that is recommended, such as dhikr or gatherings to make dhikr, the result of this conjoining will not be offensive (makruh) or unlawful (haram).
Imam Jalal al-Din Suyuti was asked for a fatwa or formal legal opinion concerning “a group of Sufis who had gathered for a session of dhikr,” and he replied:
How can one condemn making dhikr while standing, or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, “. . . those who invoke Allah standing, sitting, and upon their sides” (Koran 3:191). And ‘A’isha (Allah be well pleased with her) said, “The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to invoke Allah at all of his times” [Sahih Muslim, 1.282: 373]. And if dancing is added to this standing, it may not be condemned, as it is of the joy of spiritual vision and ecstasy, and the hadith exists [in many sources, such as Musnad al-Imam Ahmad, 1.108, with a sound (hasan) chain of transmission] that Ja‘far ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) when the Prophet told him, “You resemble me in looks and in character,” dancing from the happiness he felt from being thus addressed, and the Prophet did not condemn him for doing so, this being a basis for the legal acceptability of the Sufis dancing from the joys of the ecstasies they experience
(al-Hawi li al-fatawi. 2 vols. Cairo 1352/1933–34. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyya, 1403/1983, 2.234).
Now, Suyuti was a hadith master (hafiz, someone with over 100,000 hadiths by memory) and a recognized mujtahid Imam who authored hundreds of works in the shari‘a sciences, and his formal opinion, together with the previously cited ruling of Imam Nawawi in the Minhaj al-talibin, constitutes an authoritative legal text (nass) in the Shafi‘i school establishing that circles of dhikr which comprise the singing of spiritual poetry and dancing are neither offensive (makruh) nor unlawful (haram)—unless associated with other unlawful factors such as listening to musical instruments or the mixing of men and women—but rather are permissible.
To summarize, the hadra of our tariqa, consisting of circles of invocation of Allah (dhikr) conjoined with the singing of permissible poetry and dancing, is compatible with the Sacred Law of orthodox Islam; and when the latter elements facilitate presence of heart with Allah (as they do with most people who possess hearts), they deserve a reward from Allah by those who intend them as such. And this is the aim and importance of the hadra in the tariqa.
—————
Also, to add to what the Shaikh wrote, much of this discussion revolves around the particular view that we choose to hold regarding innovations. Most scholars hold to the five fold classification of innovation mentioned by Imam al-Izz ibn Abdis Salam. Those who dont commonly find fault with much more that the Hadra.
Quite a bit has been written in defense of the Hadra, including a section on it in Shaikh Ibn Ajibahs al-Futuhat al-Ilahiyah, which I placed on my blog back in August for those who want to read what he said as well.
Also there is this:
———
Answered by Sidi Musa Fuber
Question:
Salaam alaikum,
What is the position in the Hanbali school (both early and later classical scholars, as well as the “controversial ones” throughout) on the subject of Hadra (the Sufi standing/dancing form of zhikr)?
Wasalaam
Answer:
wa `alaykum al-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
The books indicate that the scholars of the Hanbali madhhab, and as was the case in other schools as well, did not have a consensus concerning the hadra.
One scholar who was adamant against the hadra is Ibn Al-Jawzi. This is seen in Mukhtasr Minhaj Al-Qasidin, Ahkam Al-Nisa’ and Talbis Iblis. From his accounts of what happened in the hadras of his time he was totally justified in doing so. The hadras he talked about were gatherings of the zanadiqa and they were assemblies of moral corruption..
And one scholar who was a proponent of the hadra was none other than Al-Safarini, the later Hanbali who authored one of the greatest book on athari `aqidah as well as Ghidha Al-Lubab Sharh Alfiyat Al-Adab. Sheikh `Abd Al-Qadir `Isa frequently cites Ghidha Al-Lubab in his book Haqa`iq `An Al-Tasawwuf. In addition to being a top notch scholar of Hanbali fiqh and `aqidah, he was also a student of the great Hanafi sufi sheikh Sheikh `Abd Al-Ghani Al-Nablusi.
Something to keep in mind is that many of the things that Ibn Al-Jawzi condemned Al-Safarini and other proponents of the hadra condemn as well. Proponents of the hadra put conditions on it.
Such a delicate and controversial topic warrants a detail study, if only to show each side that there is enough evidence to require mutual respect. We all, in sha Allah, have more important things to do. Like actually practicing tazkiyat al-nafs instead of talking about it and soiling our tongues.
May Allah be pleased and have mercy on all of the scholars of Islam.
And Allah knows best.
wa al-salamu `alaykum
–musa
AlKashif: I’m sure you didn’t know that you’ve broken one of the unstated rules on Muslim Apple, I don’t mind links to articles but I have an intense dislike of posting entire articles in the comments section.
I’ve modified the House Rules to include no copy-pasting articles in comments.
I’ll read the articles though.
Do you have a some more info (preferably a link) on the classification of bidah, I remember once listening to Hamza Yusuf describe it and this is a main source of division in the thought process between those that believe mawlid and hadra is innovation and those that do not.
You may want to read this .
http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=18694
Lastly, when in doubt, always return to the understanding of the earliest generations. ‘Had their been any good in it, they would have preceded us in it’.
Did the Companions understand from this incident that they should convene a gathering of Muslims and jump up and down, saying ‘Hu, Hu, Hu’? Or would any of the Successors stand in a circle, holding hands, and swaying side to side, chanting praises of the Prophet salla Allahu alayhi wa salam? Has it been narrated from any of the scholars of the first few generations of Islam – from the muhadithun like al-Bukhari and Muslim, to the qurra like Asim and Ibn Kathir and Nafi’, to the fuqaha like Malik and Abu Hanifa, to the (true) ascetics like al-Hassan al-Basri and al-Muhasibi – that they would condone, much less participate, in such acts?
If not, then the question arises: why? Are we more knowledgeable than them? Or do we love Islam more than they did? These questions should always be in the minds of the Muslims, especially those who claim to be ‘Sunni’, and ‘traditionalist’, as this means that they consider the Companions to be the best generation ever created by Allah, and their ‘tradition’ to be the most correct.
Take the Companions and their students as your role models in understanding the Quran and Sunnah, and you will always be succesful.
Im sorry sister, I was not aware. Plus, I do not know of a site where that article is located.
Regarding Bidah, yes, there is some material in English that addresses this topic. One of the best reads on it is found in an article on http://www.lamppostproductions.org of Ustadh Abdullah Ibn Hamid.
Beyond that however, I believe that even this goes back to a more fundamental difference between the way Muslims understand Taqlid/Ijtihad, and what are differences of opinion and the way to respect valid Fiqhi differences.
Indeed, there are some scholars that do not permit the Hadra or any other form of dancing for that matter, but if someone takes the valid fatwa of another scholar that goes against that view, then no one has the right to condemn him because he is not doing something that is established to be forbidden with clear cut texts.
Technically, as a Muqallid, I don’t need to even bother with trying to understand the arguments for and against something if I have already taken the Fatwa of a reliable scholar on the issue. Its funny how many scholars are almost forced to explain the arguments for their position using the primary texts, even though we are all muqalids who have no choice but to follow a Mufti that we trust in that matter-even if we don’t know the arguments for it. I think that at a certain level there is a need for that, both for the one who supports it-in order to put his heart at rest-and for the one who opposes it, so he/she can see that there is indeed a textual basis for the action and that many of our brightest scholars supported it.
Please Remove the Video from Google. JazakAllah khair!
Lovely and enriching discussion points. Many thanks to everyone.
Mujahideen Ryder: As you wish.
I dint see the video ….what is so controversial about it …please share ….
Nothing too controversial from my perspective other than the issue that all of the participants (some of whom are listed in the post) seem quite pleased to celebrate the mawlid and then also seem even more keen to make sure that we don’t talk about it.
I’m wondering why sisters seem to have been excluded from the gathering, probably the lame “no space” argument.
It’s MR’s video, so you can ask him for it.
I think they are keen to keep such videos private for the sake of preserving the honor of those involved. Not everyone will understand, and may perhaps fall into sin by backbiting under the guise of ‘speaking out on bidah’. As for the space issue, then I believe that the Mawlid was held in brothers hotel room.
Yeah that’s true about preserving the honor, yet the people who backbite have been doing so long before this video was recorded.
It was mentioned that they were in the hotel’s penthouse suite. I think the lack of space argument is one of the more disingenuous ones constantly repeated to explain the exclusion of women because almost always if people are truly concerned about equitable access, space can be made.
Why was the video deleted? Preserving the honor? That is kind of an odd slant, isn’t it. Almost implies that something dishonorable was happening?
Obviously some people are uncomfortable with their participation in this, I’d like to know who commanded the deletion from up top? I don’t think we’ll ever find out.
By the way, Sh. Ibn Bayyah was not in the room, as far as I can tell. Can someone confirm that? If true, that also highlights something important, that the biggest Shaikh at the RIS wasn’t in this thing in his own room. If he was there, then I would call it disappointing, nothing else.
Anyway, back to basics: Did the Sahabah do it? Did the Imams do it? Tabiyeen? Tabe-tabiyeen? Isn’t that sufficient to block it out. I understand some of the greatest scholars afterwards may have allowed it, with qualifications and restrictions. But, WHAT IS SAFER? (sorry for the caps). Why get into the shady areas? Don’t we have ENOUGH of good deeds to emulate, that we need to look for what are shady at best? I don’t get it. As for Abdal-Hakim Murad, I lost whatever little respect I had left for him after his guest appearance in the Muslim hit-job on Channel 4’s Mosques Undercover. I also found an article from him, praising Kabbani’s insight. He is an extremist in his views of ahl-hadith, and his sustained attacks on them.
Musings of a Muslim Mind
Very strange …..
Well, certain things are held as praiseworthy, yet people prefer to keep private.
Speaking on this issue, let me say that I respect the view of those who believe the Hadrah to be impermissible among the Imams. There is a mercy in the differences among the Imams, if only we understood that.
Is the Hadra an issue of Ijtihad or not? It is.
Does anyone have the authority to tell us what is or is not the safer position if they are not a Mufti? No.
If someone follows the Fatwa of a legitimate scholar stating that it is permissible, then no one has the right to condemn him/her or suggest that they follow their own fatwa or legal reasoning.
Then there is the question of it being doubtful. Yes, it is the practice of many of the Sufi Imams to take the stricter opinions of the Imams in their personal life, but does this apply to everything? No.Imam al-Nawawi mentions a principle that states that if the scholars differ over the permissibility of something yet it is found to possess spiritual benefit, then it is at the highest level of Mubah.
As a side note, it can be argued that the Ethiopians that were dancing and praising the Prophet sallallahu alayhi was sallam were approved in the action by the Messenger of Allah himself (Taqrir). On top of that, they were companions-having seen the Prophet and believed in him. So in their action there is a basis.
Imaam ibn Qudaamah al-Hanbali (d.620) answers the following question here :
Click to access 13.pdf
All praise is for Allaah and may His peace and blessings be upon Muhammad and his
family.
What do the noble scholars of Fiqh, may Allaah grant them success, say concerning
one who listens to (the playing of) the duff and the reed flute (shabaabah) and
singing, while swaying back and forth (tawaajud), to the point that he begins dancing.
Is this permissible or not? What about if he believes that this act is beloved to Allaah,
and that his listening (to this music), swaying to the sounds and dancing is done for
the sake of Allaah?
In which case is it permissible to beat the duff? And is it a general and absolute
allowance or must it be only played under specific circumstances?
Is it permissible to listen to poetry being recited in a melodious tune in honorable
places, such as masajid and elsewhere?
Please provide us with a fatwaa, which Allaah will reward you for, may Allaah have
mercy on you.
Assalamu alaikum
May this reach you in the best state of health and iman. Ameen.
Several points:
1. Not all forms of ibadah have formal procedures for performing them. Dhikr is one of those forms. This is based on the verse of the Qur’an regarding dhikr.
2. Bid’a is that which has no basis in the Shari’ah. Dhikr has a basis in the Shari’ah, as do the other elements of the Hadra (singing, dhikr, du’a, and moving one’s body). All of these elements have been established in the Shari’ah. For example, ta’ala badru alayna was sung by the Sahabah (radhi allahu anhum). It would be assinine to claim that the only song that can be sung is that one particular song and all other songs are bid’a. The same thing can be said about the movement of one’s body as long as it is not in a sexual manner.
3. If the integrals of an action are permissible and their is no prohibition on the action, then obviously, the action itself is permissible.
Several prominent fuqaha have given fatawa that the hadra is permissible.
http://z14.invisionfree.com/Shield_of_Islam/index.php?showtopic=36
I’m not here to argue with anyone. Several fuqaha have said that the hadra is not permissible.
The point is to respect ikhtilaaf. If a valid mujtahid gives a fatwa that is respected by subsequent mujtahids, then who are we laymen to differ?
Allahu alim.
May Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) give us all hidayah. Ameen.
masalama
Asalamu alaykum,
I respect valid iktilaf and it’s amazing to me how posts and comments go in directions that I did not intend or foresee. For me, I think I have a better understanding of hadra and mawlid, and why people partake or abstain, and some of the various proofs. Alhamdulillah and I feel only increased love for the Muslims and Islam and our various differences.
I don’t care how they try to spin (no pun intended)the explanation of bidah, this looks more like a gathering of jinns than an honorable session where ppl gather to remember Allah. One of the reasons you may not see women is because they could become uncovered. The Shaykh where I live who does the ruqiyyah requires that all the women come completely covered (eyes, hans, feet)and his female assistants have sheets with them to throw over the women who are possessed and get out of control. That’s what this reminded me of.
Jinnzaman, what would the scholars of deoband specifically say about this video? Ori s the one that you linked to from that branch?
I will add more on this topic later…
Jinnzaman,
As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatAllah,
Just a few comments insha’aAllah ta’la from what you stated from the perspective of Usool..
1. All forms of ‘ibaadah are not subjected to size, time, place, etc. But ALL forms of ‘ibaadah are subjected to the procedure that they be taken from sources of Law: i.e. the Sunnah of the Prophet salAllahu ‘alaihee wa sallam, the Qur’an, Ijmaa’, etc.
Dhikr in this case is, for the most part, not constricted to time and place, size/amount, etc. As for the procedure, the words stated and signifying the PLACE and FIXING the AMOUNT has BY DEFAULT to be derived from the sources of Law. example: One who states that one should make dhikr, certain number of times, at this certain time, in any manner- if he has no source no matter WHAT his status as a mujtahid his opinion is simply rejected.
2. The usool has to be kept in mind: Al-aslu fil-`ibaadaat al-hadhru illaa ma waradah `anish-shar`ee tashree`ahu. Wal-aslu fil-`aadaat al-ibaahah ilaa ma waradah `anish-shar`ee tahreemahu- The principle regarding acts of worship is one of prohibition, except if the Sharee`ah (Divinely Prescribed Law) relates a prescription for it. And the principle regarding the customary behaviour is permissibility, except when the Sharee`ah relates a prohibition for it.
Respectively, you have taken the CONCEPT of the action and attached a RULING to a specific Action. In Usool, we do not reject concepts based on actions of ‘ibaadah, this would not make sense. Example, someone is praying with his hands on his head and facing the west purposefully and intentionally, do we reject the concept of his prayer? No, we reject what he is doing this is a Bid’a.
Similarly, dhikr is established in the shari’ah – whoever denies it IS a Mubtad’i. Respectively, passively saying “hadra has basis in the shari’ah” is under question. Hadra – by way of singing, and moving one’s body in a certain manner; limited to certain manner and by way of persons involved and what is SAID is under contention to say the least to produce the proof FROM the sources.
As an aside the nasheed ta’la badru, akhi that in itself is questioned by historians; the usool is what is mashhoor (known by the majority) is not necessarily the haqq (truth). Allah ‘azza wa jal says, “verily if you were to follow the majority of mankind you would be misguided.”
Often quoted sayings does not give a ruling of authenticity. Secondly, if the nasheed itself has NO CHAIN of narration and is reported in the books of history THERE IS IJMAA’ (CONSENSUS) THAT NO RULING CAN BE TAKEN FROM IT.
As for taking a general concept and deriving a specific ruling from it the usool IS that one takes the general and until there is a SPECIFIC evidence to specify the action. Taking Dhikr as an acceptable general concept and deriving a specific action out of it is not accepted. In deriving a hukm 2 things are in order:
a) is the evidence you are using AUTHENTIC?
b) does it have ANYTHING to do with the mas’ala?
i.e. general dhikr cannot specify dancing. Where is the PROOF for dancing? AND, DOES IT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ISSUE?
3. The problem with your reasoning based on the usool is that there is NO prohibition on the action. THE ACTION under question is ‘dancing in dhikr/’ibaadah.’
Those contesting do not prove it is wrong. In acts of ‘ibaadah those that are COMMITING the act present the proof for permissibility.
As for those who say they are from Ahlus Sunnah the principle in Ahlus Sunnah is that we:
1. NEVER base a HUKM on a SINGLE evidence, rather we look at ALL Of the evidences critically before deriving a ruling from it.
2. NEVER base the ahkaam on opinions over the statement of the Prophet salAllahu ‘alaihee wa salam or sources. If we based them on the fatwa’s of the few over the majority.. there would not be a differentiation between shi’a and us.
Saying all of that, Imaam Maalik rahimahullah made a beautiful statement that we should all think critically of..
Imaam Maalik rahimahullah was once was once asked, “What do you think about someone who bases himself upon a narration which a trustworth person narrated to him from one of the Companions, do you think it is acceptable?” He said, “No, by Allah! not until he hits upon the truth, and there is only one truth.
Two contradictory statements cannot both be correct.” The like of this
has been narrated from al-Layth ibn Sa’d. (Kitaab al Jaami’ of Ibn
Abee Zayd Al Qayrawanee)
I just wanted to clarify the usool akhi as it may confuse some who are wishing to see the truth for themselves.
Islam came to open the minds of people not restrict them, out of fear of going beyond our capabilities we cannot hinder our potential for understanding.. the intellect is a tool not the lawmaker.
Ameen to your du’as
WAllahu ‘Alam
wAs-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatAllah
wait wait I was under impression that “hadhra” is NOT considered an ibadah and that’s what I was told by those who propagate it. It is rather a mubah act which they indluge in to get spiritually high..so to say.
Wallahu A’alam/
Assalamu alaikum
As I stated above, I am not here to argue with anyone over whether the hadra is permissible or not. There are plenty of scholars who think that the hadra is not permissible. There are also plenty of scholars who think that giving the khutbah in a language other than Arabic is bid’a and therefore give the fatwa that the Khutbah for Jumah can only be in Arabic. However, these scholars do not go around and bash other scholars who have natural differences of opinion. Within each madhab, including amongst the Malikis and the Deobandis, you’ll find opinions that think that Hadra is acceptable. Again, within the same madhab, you’ll find opinions that its not acceptable. Ikhtilaaf is not about getting people to agree to your opinion, ikhtilaaf is about accepting the valid differences of opinion of fiqh.
Nuqtah, it depends on how you define ‘ibadah’. There are different types and forms of ibadah. Ibadah can be formalized in the sense of salah or it can be informal in the sense of dhikr or without any form at all. Eating food can technically be construed as ibadah if one’s intention is to acquire energy to worship Allah (subhana wa ta’ala).
masalama
Well, certain things are held as praiseworthy, yet people prefer to keep private.
If this was a praiseworthy act of worship, wouldnt these “scholars”/Imam’s want the reward of encouraging the practice of the Sunnah of our beloved Messenger (peace be upon him) and the Sunnah of the 4 rightly guided Khalifa’s…Ohh hold on, the best of creation and the best generation never did this.
I thank Allah he guided me to Islam, an in Islam I ask Allah to protect me from that which is not accordance to his deen. ameen
What I don’t get is the secrecy, is this who Sheikh Hamzah and Zaid really are, then come out with it, why are you hiding who you are and what you believe, and why are people so upset at this video if everything is so great?
The decision to remove the video is probably the call of some other brothers and not Shaikh Hamza or Imam Zaid. If someone believes something is permissible (and not Wajib)-yet at the same time, recognizing that it is a contentious issue among Muslims, it is from the Fiqh of Dawah that one does those things in private for the sake of preserving unity with those who do not approve of it. That is not only for things that are disputed matters, but also bona fide indisputable sunnahs, as Imam Ibn Taymiyah said: ”from the sunnah, is to leave the sunnah in order to draw hearts close.” This is why people are not necessarily shouting the virtues of the Mawlid upon the rooftops. It is not obligatory. Im sure if you were to ask the two Shaikhs in an open gathering about the Mawlid, they would tell you exactly what they feel about it.
On a related note, I was once riding with a very popular Da’i that all of you know of, who went into a Burger King drive through and ordered a cheeseburger. He told me not to tell the brothers that he takes that fatwa (that I feel is very weak). He choose to keep his Fiqh view a private matter so as to preserve the unity of the Muslims and prevent disputation.
As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatAllah,
hayyaakAllah akhi Jinnzaman -).
alkashif..
I’m sorry but the statement of ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah was misquoted.
mainly… changing the word “sunnah” from the quote.
he said ‘From the Sunnah, is to leave the MUSTAHAB (recommended) to uphold the WAAJIB (obligatory) which is to unite the Jama’ah.” i.e. Uniting the Jam’ah is WAAJIB over a Recommended act (mustahab).
It’s in Majmoo’ al Fatawaa i’ll find you the refrence (in arabic) if needed.
The problem in the misquoting using ‘sunnah’ instead of ‘mustahab’ is that the word ‘sunnah’ has different definitions in different sciences – i.e. usool has a definition meaning MUSTAHAB (recommended), hadith has a definition, ‘uloom ul qur’aan has a definition, etc.
WAllahu ‘Alam
WAs-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatAllah
The only reason why I had to remove the video was becuase I wrongly titled it and labeled it “RIS” mawlid video, when it had nothing to do with RIS.
If the video had no connection with RIS, then it would be fine. You can find other mawlid videos with Shaykh Hamza and Imam Zaid on YouTube.
salamu `alaykum
A few brothers requested me to take off the description of the Mawlid – not Shaykh Hamza or Imam Zaid. To avoid any argumentation and quarrels, i eventually complied with their request.
The narration of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) states “Gatherings are a trust (al majalis bil amaanati)”. This si the default as it relates to any gathering. Someones wanting to keep the default as such, and to not let specifics of a gathering out to the public is perfectly within his right and is in complete compliance with the dictates of the asl of the prophetic command.
as for the Hadra, scholars allowed it and the difference on it is valid. This should be more than a sufficient reason to hold back our tongues – regardless of our personal belief on the issue. We are not the inheritors of the Prophet (pbuh) and nor do we possess an iota of knowledge people like Imam Suyuti, Ibn Hajar Haytami, Imam Ramili, Maulana Ashraf `Ali Thanawi and others held.
Among the Deobandi scholars who allow the Hadra – even after being known for their strict definition of bida` – are [1] Maulana Ashraf `Ali Thanawi [2] Mufti Rafi` `Uthmani [3] Mufti Taqi `Uthmani [4] Mufti Mahmud Ashraf. The latter three are the foremost scholars of Deoband today, whereas the former is considered one of the Elders (akabir) of Deoband and the pole of this manhaj.
After all this, who can argue and throw out blanket statements?
Wasalam
Salman
Ps: Sisters were included, but they were in a totally seperate room.
Wasalam
Asalamu alaykum,
MR & Salman: Thanks for clearing that up albeit belatedly, it would have been nice if we could have had some of that information a little bit earlier.
One question no one has answered was since you were in the suite of Shaykh bin Bayyah was he present, the assumption I gather is that he was not there.
salamu `alaykum
Shaykh Bin Bayyah had left for Hajj, I believe.
Wasalam
Salman
As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatAllah Salman akhi -),
No one is putting their opinions over scholars, rather this is just to clarify for those who have the means and want to understand, can do so.
Rather all we’re saying,
1. “Aqwaal al ‘oolamaa la yahtajju biha.” The statements of the scholars are NOT A PROOF BY THEMSELVES.
2. Statements over statements hold no value except Ijmaa’ (and even then some say ONLY the sahabah).
We respect all the ‘oolamma may Allah have mercy on them and reward them for their Ijtihaad and multiply it.
But there is only haqq, one truth.
WAllahu ‘Alam
Asalamu alaykum,
In the maliki school such acts (hadara and dhikr out loud) are considered bida. This is what Sh. Abdullah Bin Bayyah stated and what I’ve learned from a large number of Maliki scholars. I felt it was wrong to do that in Sh. Bin Bayyah’s room. And why the secrecy? If you did it, then don’t be ashamed and face peoples questions.
TheTranslators
Hadra or Mawlid is permissble I just skipped read here so if any1 has proved it so Alhamdulilah, if not just a simple question here how can informing/teaching others of rasul Allah(pbuh) life and works be a bida’h ? How can Salawat shariff be a bida’h when in the Holy Quran Kerim orders us to ? How can giving out sweets/food to everyone in this festival of mawlid be a bida’h shall I add more common sense issues? for over 7 years ive debated with people with closed eyes/hearts how can loving rasul Allah (pbuh) be a bida’h as such gatherings incite love and unity esp. in Hadra. All of you whom are against this I plead you to wake up.
Innovation (Bid’ah) in matters of religion begets nothing more than confusion and misunderstanding. This posting is a perfect example.
Also, I find it all too convenient that the video was deleted. Nonetheless, there are worse examples we can find online of people with such a mindset.
Sorry to post again sister, you can delete this one. I just wanted to mention people have disagreed over the centuries over the issue, but it has not been a major issue, and the people believing the hadrah to be usually, at worst, makruh, have been a small minority.
Again, Please remove the video. It has nothing to do with RIS. If you want I’ll put up the original clip. The only reason I want it down was becuase it was wrongly attributed to RIS. When it had nothing to do with them. I will get sin for spreading this falsehood.
JazakAllah khair!
I think people can understand that this was not an official RIS event. The continued interest stems from the participants and the secrecy. People have continued to ask almost 10 months later not about RIS but just about the video.
Post the link, when you have it up in sha Allah.
Salaams,
Well this stills appears to be topic of interest…
asalamualaykum wr wb,
I never came across a group of Muslims performing the Hadrah until I met this Murabitun community. Coming from Pakistani parents, and I myself born and raised in America, I had no knowledge or exposure to any Sufi tariqa, even with all the lectures I would listen to, including Shaikh Hamza Yusuf and Zaid Shakir. I suppose this is a strange question, and I have read everything on this post, I am interested in a sister who’s community collectively performs these hadras and dhikr sessions, and ofcourse, being new to it, I am uncomfortable. But what really hurts is that the sister and I may no longer be together because of this difference. The fact that there are sources out there that entirely mark it as bid’aa, I wouldn’t want my children to practice it if that’s the case, but she justifiably believes it would make them stronger. I am leaning towards the ruling that it is mubah, but it really makes my heart sink with sadness to know that a factor like this can keep Muslims divided… as much of a blessing it is to be a Muslim, it hurts to be divided, as I contemplate to see if I accept this Sufi custom or not, in effect being the decision of whether or not I can be with her. Any advice out there would be greatly appreciated, jazakallahu khair.
Mashallah – Thank you for the links. May Allah (SWT) bless the noble Sheikh Abdur Rahman (RA) and grant him the highest Jannat ul Firdous. May Allah give us the tawfeeq to honour Habib Allah (SAW), the companies and the noble Ahl ul Bait.
Beautiful Hadra, May Allah fill our hearts with love. Ameen
Allah Azzawajjal looks at intentions, and all deeds will be judged on their intention. – That is enough proof.
If the intention is to forget the dunya whilst remembering him and his beloved, in the form of hadra, how can that be wrong?
Besides, allah azzawajjal blesses the people with real faith with a light, only which they can see. Now you tell me honestly, do you see light in darkness?
I thought not. Maybe its because youve not yet freed your soul from dunya. Come and join in and be sincere, and see what allah gives you too.
Khuda hafiz
Shouldn’t intentions and actions be in accordance with the Quran and Sunnah? Are we allowed to invent acts of worship?
Oh people, Come and bow down to you lord, the lord of all creation, and open your eyes to his mercy. Has he himself not said ” my mercy is greater than my wrath”?
Has the prophet of allah, the beloved of allah, the noor of allah also not said that the momins intentions are better than his actions?
Realise one thing, we all ignore sins that we choose to do, and we dont say they are bidat, or wrong. Why do we then oppose alternative ways of being close to our creator?
Isnt it the heart that allah looks at? From personal experience I’ll say one thing – If the hadrah is done with eyes closed, and with serious love and sincerity, the spirit reaches its purpose – to be lost in the remembrance of allah.
All I can say is for those people who are against it, firstly realise one thing. You will never go to paradise on the merit of your worship, and nor does allah need anyones worship. His magnificence remains unchanged despite what we choose to do. However if we choose to remember him, he remembers us and blesses us with his closeness, a closeness that cant be described, only expereinced.
So my dear islamic brothers and sisters, dont point fingers at others, worry about yourself. and always look for the mercy of allah, for thats the saviour for everyone, and not their actions.
Sufism is about loving your lord, the most high. To love him, you have to find a way to connect with him. To connect with him you have to shut off from dunya. This is the purpose of hadra.
I pray allah azzwajjal give every muslim the taufiq to practice his zikr, and to reach him.
Ameen
doesnt allah azzawajjal say that “you will find me, as you percieve me”?
Maybe the Sufi’s are always looking for the Mercy of thier lord, and thats why the overall intention wins over the real action!
Your all forgetting one thing – Allah azzawajjals mercy.
For us Sufi’s its the only fuel coupled with love.
Each to their own, but please remember not to hurt anyones feelings, as only Allah can judge.
Allah O Akbar
how disgusting to read how the contending groups try to justify and others condemning certain practices. It is very evident that certain practices with no basis in Shariah or the Quran are the cause of a great divide amongst Muslims. Sects are prohibited in Islam and this is what these groupings are.The one intelligent posting by Abdulhasib that statements by whoever the Shaikh is does not validate his standpoint until he brings his proof, for he in himself is of no authority.
I plead with the Muslims not to follow blindly,take time to establish accurate information and knowledge.There is enough in the Quran and Hadith( especially on issue of Dhikr) that clearly establishes our belief system and we definitely don’t need add ons. So busy yourself with what is clearly revealed and avoid these contentious practices that are creeping into our religion and causing divisions.
The Hadith of our Nabi (SAW) with reference to innovations is clear and it applies to everybody irrespective of his/her status. None of these personalities after the greatest human being that was ever created our Nabi Muhammad (SAW) are infallible.